Every year they try to push this same shit with a new name. One day there will be a reichstag fire and it will be passed.
So fucking transparant, yet I don’t see a way to stop them.
Pretty straightforward: join anarchist groups like the ccc and the fau, vote radical left and tell everyone you know to do the exact same. It already helps in some areas, just keep doing it.
I didn’t know about those groups, thanks for bringing light to it although I’d be wary of voting radical left unless the alternative is only a right-winger
“Wary” of radical left why exactly?
Not in all cases as I said between a radical left and a right-winger you might be better voting for the radical left but why I say to be wary is because of the Horseshoe Theory
If you were to say progressive leftists is where I’d be all for
Horseshoe theory is bunk because, when you drill down, all it’s basically saying is that people who disagree with the tenets of liberal capitalism don’t respect the legitimacy of a system based on the tenets of liberal capitalism. It’s essentially a tautology, and not incitefull because liberal capitalists also don’t respect the legitimacy of systems that aren’t based on liberal capitalist tenets.
And how do you ensure that the “radical left” doesn’t support surveillance measures? Not like the ideology has a good track record on that matter.
You mean like every other government? I dont. Radical leftists stand for human rights. Of course there is a chance that they get coopted. But every other political ideology does not need to get coopted to oppress people.
Most moderate anything government doesn’t even begin to come anywhere close to the control of a “radical” leftist state.
What is your basis for “radical” leftists standing for human rights? Radical leftists are rarely liberally minded. I don’t disagree that many left-wing parties stand for decency, environmental protection, and various rights - but “radicals” do not.
You are making assumptions. It shows that you dont have any idea of leftism.
The idea of leftism is that people (and animals in most cases) are the same and deserve their needs met.
You can criticize the measures taken to ensure this, especially in capitalist societies where you may have to use force to break capitalist resistance. If all you ever knew is rape, being disallowed to rape can feel repressive. But its still okay to repress it.
And it is okay to disagree on this. Thats why we have both anarchists and marxists. Massively simplified, one party wants to mentally arm the population and push for a self educating, politically mature population. The other one wants to change the system from the top and reeducate the public on cooperation and classless society while forcefully repressing the regressive ideas.
They both actually want the same, communism. The classless, stateless society.
Of course that is an ideal, a utopia that might never be real but the millions of people dying under capitalism every year and the exploited people all over the world, the exploited planet that is starting to kick us out are WAY worse than all that has been seen before. The strongest argument for marxism is the limited time we have before we will just die out (starting with those who already are exploited the most today).
no thanks, no person who waves around hammer and cycle gives two shits about betterment of mankind, the same way someone waving a swastika around does not.
The rough quote is, we have to win against this every time. They only have to win once.
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I fear that’s an oversimplification, seeing how both the socialist and the marxist MEPs from Belgium voted pro last time (1)
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“No true Scotsman”.
We don’t have to think in political leanings following the left-right paradigm. Parties and persons considered “leftist” aren’t inherently good, nor is the other side inherently bad. Don’t limit yourself by identifying with just one ideology. In case you didn’t realise, socialists tend to like surveillance as well
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Of course fascists are bad and can go fuck themselves - but not all “right wingers” are fascists.
Socialist regimes are inherently fond of surveillance. Indiviuals can have any given stance on it. Politically involved people - minus fascists - tend to have stances against surveillance and for data protection.
There’s a lot of nuance inbetween “capitalist” and “anti-capitalist”. I’m not here to defend capitalism but this black-and-white worldview often held by self-proclaimed left-wingers is offputting to the very masses that they claim to represent to such a degree that the working class would rather shoot themselves in the foot by voting for fascists and fascist-adjacents rather than support “crazy leftists”. In the modern age it’s an ideology of a lot of talk and studies and very few results.
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Maybe you’re not a real marxist and they are 🤔
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Its refreshing to see people care about this subject outside of privacy forums.
Im sure the agencies that do monitor us have stopped potential threats, but there is a fine line between this and having secret police.
This is something you’d expect in North Korea
(Europeans rather than Americans in this case, but you get the point.
It has nothing to do with Asia, but with a totalitarian regime. Such mass surveillance is what dictators do. I could also have said old east Germany, the USSR, Russia, the US, Turkmenistan, El salvador. It’s just that I chose north Korea as it is currently one of the worst and most known today.
Except it’s not what they’re doing. It’s what the EU is doing. Westerners just assume that they’re always “the good guys”, and whenever they do something bad the most they can muster up is “this is something 'the bad guys” would do!"
You’re looking at something being done by the EU and immediately pivot to attacking other countries
Because I don’t want the EU to change in a totalitarian regime. I want to be the good guys but I’m disgusted by our support of Israel, I’m disgusted by our predatory trade deals with developing countries, etc. So I know we’re not he good guys. But I want to be, and I want to keep/make the EU a nice place to live in. So I do compare certain extreme proposals to countries where you’d expect certain things to happen, so people will understand we don’t want to go in that direction. We should always strive to do better. But we also have a dictatorship inside the EU (Hungary) so it’s not all happy days het either. We should just steer away from this instead of incorporate it into the entire EU.
So I know we’re not he good guys
Do you? When you hear about some other country outside of the EU and the West doing something draconian do you find yourself saying “This is something you’d expect in the EU”? Or do you reserve that statement for the designated “bad guy countries”. I don’t think you see the EU as bad guys, I think you see them as "The Good Guys, who are not currently living up to the people they’re supposed to be. Because these labels aren’t based on what countries actually do, they’re based on a per-assigned ontology, where some countries are good and some are bad inherently, and if the former does bad that’s just them falling short of their true nature. So even when they do bad things, those bad things still remain somehow metaphysically of the bad guy country, like saying that a law in the EU is somehow “North Korean” in character.
So I do compare certain extreme proposals to countries where you’d expect certain things to happen
I ‘expect’ this kind of thing to happen in the EU, because it does, and it is. You’re once again acting like something being done by “good guy” countries is actually representative of other countries, and not of the EU.
We should always strive to do better.
Step one is to stop assuming you’re ontologically the good guys and that any bad things you do is actually just out of character and more like something they’d do in enemy countries.
But we also have a dictatorship inside the EU
Yeah, and most of the EU is actively supporting the most brutal regime on Earth in an active genocide. I reject the idea that the EU has a leg to stand on when it comes to accusing other countries of being totalitarian just because it reserves its totalitarian repression for people overseas.
You just attack me based on your assumptions. You are doing exactly what you are accusing me of: You act like you are better than me by making me a bad guy.
If you think the EU isn’t a better place than the DPRK, you’re free to go there. I do not expect certain things to happen in a free democracy, when we want to keep it a free democracy instead of a totalitarian regime. I’m willing to fight for it and speak out. Giving up all our privacy for mass surveillance doesn’t fit the EU and what it stands for. If you think otherwise, you might not understand the EU.
I don’t feel like defending attacks based on your assumptions so I’m going to step out of this discussion. There aren’t just good and bad guys, the world is so much more complex than just black and white. You keep on attacking me for thinking “we are the good guys” even though I already said we aren’t. We indeed are better than others and others are better than us. That’s how the world works. But there are no good guys. I try to be become better and help others become better. I don’t look down on others, rather prefer to help them instead. I try to be a good guy but I also make mistakes. I’m only human. But at least I’m doing the best I can.
I wish you a good day
You just attack me based on your assumptions.
No, I’m calling out a behavior I disagree with
You are doing exactly what you are accusing me of: You act like you are better than me by making me a bad guy.
That’s not remotely what I was saying, please actually read what I said and make a real effort to understand what I meant.
If you think the EU isn’t a better place than the DPRK, you’re free to go there.
I think that we are explicitly talking about something bad the EU is doing. I do also think the DPRK is a much better place to live than Gaza, and the EU supports that. so maybe you should go to Gaza?
I do not expect certain things to happen in a free democracy
Well they do, so maybe you should recalibrate your expectations to be based on real life and not the good-guy/bad-guy fiction you apply, so you don’t end up looking at things the EU does and saying “this is something [bad guy country] does!” Also, hard to call it a free democracy when the people you murder overseas don’t’ get to vote, and all of your media is owned by right wing oligarchs.
I’m willing to fight for it and speak out.
Doesn’t seem like it, seems like you’re more interested in fighting foreigners.
I don’t feel like defending attacks based on your assumptions so I’m going to step out of this discussion.
So you can’t actually defend yourself but are too stubborn to admit it.
There aren’t just good and bad guys, the world is so much more complex than just black and white.
Correct, so maybe you should start actually acting like it, rather than splitting the world into the good guys (free democracies) and the bad guys (totalitarian regimes) and treating totalitarian policies of the good guys as some how being ontologically of the bad guy countries that had nothing to do with them.
though I already said we aren’t.
Then stop acting like you think you are.
But there are no good guys.
Then act like it.
I don’t look down on others, rather prefer to help them instead.
That sounds like you look down on them. Do you ever actually entertain the possiblity that anyone might be right outside of “west best” liberals?
I try to be a good guy but I also make mistakes
And will you actually change your behavior when your mistakes get pointed out? Or will you double down?
Any country that treats fleeing the country as criminal deserves all the hate it can get. North Korea is evil.
It deserves all criticism and insult, both fair and precise teardowns, and mad sloppy jabs.
This motherfucker likes Kim Jong Un and Juche shit.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I wouldn’t be aware of it otherwise. For what its worth, I left my ideas as feedback there.
Also, I would just like to point out that before lemmy (and subscribing to various EU communities) I was not at all active in voicing my opinion about such things as I didn’t have any idea that it was even possible/how to do it. Lemmy as a whole has helped me become more active in this regard :D
" built-in backdoors,"
Good luck getting that into a lot of the open source tech we now use.
Simple: the open source tech is now illegal unless they can afford a full time legal team.
It’s regulatory capture: the big firms get consulted by the EU and can design the laws to the detriment of competition. It’s why now, for example, european cars are so expensive and restricted to a handfull of producers.
Alphabet and friends welcome regulation like this.
Data retention != mass surveilance. Data retention != built-in backdoors. Even the link summary spells out exactly what the purpose of the proposal is (criminal proceedings) and the intended objective (data retention standards).
Even as an American, this is terrifying. Everyone knows my country is shit, but I’ve always seen you guys as the gold standard and for this kind of thing to even be discussed over on your side of the pond is absolutely horrifying…
It’s a specific group within the EU that’s trying to do this.
Like those Project 2025 people.
This has widespread support under MEPs, accross party lines. It’s only Germany and Poland that opposed it last time. (1)
To the EU:
At least they give a platform for people to speak out and it’s public, but yes disappointing although if you see the other cross-posts some are not straight talking about the risks other than just saying it’s about mass surveillance or metadata collection which could ring less alarm bells for people reading it (i know mass surveillance should be enough but oh well)
