The reason steam engines went went away was because of economics. Electric motors where more powerful, more efficient, fewer moving parts and less maintenance, can power up instantly and don’t need to heat up a boiler for an hour before it’s ready - so in short cheaper to run.
The problem I see with EVs in germany is that electricity costs are already high, and with extra fees on fast charging the price advantage is not there compared to petrol - at least not if you rely on public charging and don’t have a solar roof at home.
An EV is at 15-20kWh/100km so with 0.3€/kWh we are talking 4.5-6€/100km. Average petrol car is at 7.7l/100km. With prices of 1.6€/l we are talking 12.3€/100km. So about twice as much as an EV for home charging. With fast charging it would be about the same. The electric motor being less problematic is also true against a combustion engine. It should last longer, if built properly.
Also the reason EVs are more expensive is that there is a lack of cheap batteries. We currently see a lot of factories being built. This means lower battery prices and therefore lower EV prices. Some of the offers of BYD and the like are already very good.
I drive electric in Germany and I wish the price is what you claim. On a public charger it is >0,5€/kWh.
It’s up to >0,8€/kWh when they pull a quick one and charge you out of network prices - which is a constant danger when driving long distance.
It’s almost as bad as mobile roaming used to be before the EU stepped in. I’m not planning to go back but the pricing is fucked up. The price schemes need to be regulated.
Do you think most people in Germany are homeowners?
That most people live outside of cities?
Or that all people in cities live in their own homes with easy available charging and photovoltaic solutions?
Also: Could you kindly respond to the question I mentioned in my previous comment? It would be greatly appreciated and show a minimal bit of courtesy.
Did you so far only drive short distance/commute or did you get to ‘enjoy’ the pricing schemes on fast chargers?
So far I never drove long distance in an EV.
Do you think most people in Germany are homeowners?
No, but cars cost a lot of money. So if they are not they should very seriously think about needing a car.
That most people live outside of cities?
Yes. Less then a third of Germans live in cities(over 100k population) the rest lives in towns or rural regions.
Or that all people in cities live in their own homes with easy available charging and photovoltaic solutions?
No, but they live in a German city, which means they do not need a car. In fact the more rural, the more likely they actually have those options.
Do you believe that somebody living in a rented flat in say Darmstadt needs a car? The city has trams and is pretty dense after all. You can buy a decent flat for like 400k€ in Darmstadt, so the 50k€ a good EV would cost you, is half the down payment for a flat and the costs for insurance, taxes and are pretty close to the difference between mortgage payments and renting. Would you recommend somebody to buy the flat or the EV? That is true for most German cities, with different costs for flats though.
The more rural the region, the easier it is to charge at home using solar and the more you actually need a car. I know that there are rural apartment blocks and so forth, but that is not normal. At the same time I actually know a few people living in cities, who own their own home and even more, who have access to a private parking lot, which can be used for home charging. Balcony solar is also a thing.
That is why I posted the statistics above. It shows what actual EV owners actually charger their EVs. That being mostly at home.
So far I never drove long distance in an EV.
Do so, it’ll be an eye-opening experience for you. Also it is hard to miss this strong point of contention in online media.
Do you think most people in Germany are homeowners?
No, but cars cost a lot of money. So if they are not they should very seriously think about needing a car.
Do you really think this assumption of yours is based in reality?
That most people live outside of cities?
Yes. Less then a third of Germans live in cities(over 100k population) the rest lives in towns or rural regions.
Also a City over 100k population is defined as a Großstadt. It’s quite weird you try put that as a qualifier to score a win. No idea what you thought to gain by that.
Or that all people in cities live in their own homes with easy available charging and photovoltaic solutions?
No, but they live in a German city, which means they do not need a car.
BS. You don’t know that.
Do you believe that somebody living in a rented flat in say Darmstadt needs a car? The city has trams and is pretty dense after all.
Yes, I do. You have absolutely no idea whatsoever on how their situation is. Maybe they need it for commuting, transporting chrildren, visiting relatives, etc. pp.
You can buy a decent flat for like 400k€ in Darmstadt…
If you are single or dink then probably, Families pay >600k€. There’s almost nothing on the market, so prices stay shitty.
Also drive through any German city - Do you think that all / a majority of the cars owned by homeowners only?
Would you recommend somebody to buy the flat or the EV?
Note that in 2023 49% of new cars in Germany were financed, the trajectory growing since 2019 - I assume it’s well beyond 50% now. Whatever you or I think about that financially or in terms of what it means for our society - it is what it is: People buy cars whether they can afford them or (according to you) need them or not.
who have access to a private parking lot, which can be used for home charging.
And I know a lot people that have a spot in an undergound garage - some have no chance for placing a charge, other have a prohibitive price point attached to it. Others live in an old building, there is no possibility of adding a garage.
Balcony solar is also a thing.
Yep, balcony solar will charge my car I in just a bit over 100 hours, realistically it’ll take more than a week. This is assuming I get a spot in front of my own house, which happens like 5 times per year. Grasping at straws, but why?
Look, for some reason you thing you need to ‘win’ this ‘point’ and resort to moving goalposts and bad faith points.
I believe we both share the same goal that we want to promote EV usage and possibly even want to get rid of combustion engines? I know I do, especially in cities.
EV acceptance / migration in presently in decline HUK-E-Barometer There are a couple of reasons for that and a big one of those is that public charging is dog shit in Germany. Granted, it’s better than 5 or 10 years ago but it is still dog shit. There still being need for more stations and the prices being a hot mess are the biggest problems here.
But the price difference is not so extreme that people would scrap their petrol car for an new 20000 Euro or more EV overnight. It’s only important for people who drive a lot.
I have been looking into this as I’d like to switch. My current car needs roughly 6.5 liters of gas per 100km, gas where I live is around 1.70-1.80€/l, that’s around 11-11.70€/100km Somewhat reasonable EVs of similar size need something between 17-20 kWh/100 km, so break even should be between 55 - 68 cents/kWh.
Electricity at home is around 40 cents, so no solar roof required to save at least some money. (It’s actually more like 30-35 cents if you remember that you need to pay the monthly baseline anyway since you need power for your home).
Public charging heavily depends on the owner of the charger, but you can find AC charging below 60 cents. (I hope we’ll get some regulation against roaming costs between different companies at some point).
Fast charging is expensive and it depends on the individual use case if you need a lot of that. But gas on the highway is more expensive too, especially during holiday season (when a lot of people take longer trips).
But it’s true that the advantage isn’t as obvious as it should be, especially compared to the up front costs.
Who said that this is fine in general? The argument that electric vehicles are not competitive with petrol cars in Germany IF you use public charging stations only is kind of irrelevant if in reality 90% of charging cycles are done at home.
The reason steam engines went went away was because of economics. Electric motors where more powerful, more efficient, fewer moving parts and less maintenance, can power up instantly and don’t need to heat up a boiler for an hour before it’s ready - so in short cheaper to run.
The problem I see with EVs in germany is that electricity costs are already high, and with extra fees on fast charging the price advantage is not there compared to petrol - at least not if you rely on public charging and don’t have a solar roof at home.
An EV is at 15-20kWh/100km so with 0.3€/kWh we are talking 4.5-6€/100km. Average petrol car is at 7.7l/100km. With prices of 1.6€/l we are talking 12.3€/100km. So about twice as much as an EV for home charging. With fast charging it would be about the same. The electric motor being less problematic is also true against a combustion engine. It should last longer, if built properly.
Also the reason EVs are more expensive is that there is a lack of cheap batteries. We currently see a lot of factories being built. This means lower battery prices and therefore lower EV prices. Some of the offers of BYD and the like are already very good.
I drive electric in Germany and I wish the price is what you claim. On a public charger it is >0,5€/kWh.
It’s up to >0,8€/kWh when they pull a quick one and charge you out of network prices - which is a constant danger when driving long distance.
It’s almost as bad as mobile roaming used to be before the EU stepped in. I’m not planning to go back but the pricing is fucked up. The price schemes need to be regulated.
Those are home charging prices.
I’m aware. Comparing home prices to gas stations is apples & pears though. Especially since most people won’t be able to charge at home.
Did you so far only drive short distance/commute or did you get to ‘enjoy’ the pricing schemes on fast chargers?
53% of charges are done at home, 15% at work and 32% at public chargers. 34% charge their car almost exclusivly with local solar.
Do you think most people in Germany are homeowners? That most people live outside of cities? Or that all people in cities live in their own homes with easy available charging and photovoltaic solutions?
Also: Could you kindly respond to the question I mentioned in my previous comment? It would be greatly appreciated and show a minimal bit of courtesy.
So far I never drove long distance in an EV.
No, but cars cost a lot of money. So if they are not they should very seriously think about needing a car.
Yes. Less then a third of Germans live in cities(over 100k population) the rest lives in towns or rural regions.
No, but they live in a German city, which means they do not need a car. In fact the more rural, the more likely they actually have those options.
Do you believe that somebody living in a rented flat in say Darmstadt needs a car? The city has trams and is pretty dense after all. You can buy a decent flat for like 400k€ in Darmstadt, so the 50k€ a good EV would cost you, is half the down payment for a flat and the costs for insurance, taxes and are pretty close to the difference between mortgage payments and renting. Would you recommend somebody to buy the flat or the EV? That is true for most German cities, with different costs for flats though.
The more rural the region, the easier it is to charge at home using solar and the more you actually need a car. I know that there are rural apartment blocks and so forth, but that is not normal. At the same time I actually know a few people living in cities, who own their own home and even more, who have access to a private parking lot, which can be used for home charging. Balcony solar is also a thing.
That is why I posted the statistics above. It shows what actual EV owners actually charger their EVs. That being mostly at home.
Do you really think this assumption of yours is based in reality?
It’s the other way around though: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/662560/umfrage/urbanisierung-in-deutschland/
Also a City over 100k population is defined as a Großstadt. It’s quite weird you try put that as a qualifier to score a win. No idea what you thought to gain by that.
BS. You don’t know that.
Yes, I do. You have absolutely no idea whatsoever on how their situation is. Maybe they need it for commuting, transporting chrildren, visiting relatives, etc. pp.
If you are single or dink then probably, Families pay >600k€. There’s almost nothing on the market, so prices stay shitty.
Also drive through any German city - Do you think that all / a majority of the cars owned by homeowners only?
Note that in 2023 49% of new cars in Germany were financed, the trajectory growing since 2019 - I assume it’s well beyond 50% now. Whatever you or I think about that financially or in terms of what it means for our society - it is what it is: People buy cars whether they can afford them or (according to you) need them or not.
And I know a lot people that have a spot in an undergound garage - some have no chance for placing a charge, other have a prohibitive price point attached to it. Others live in an old building, there is no possibility of adding a garage.
Yep, balcony solar will charge my car I in just a bit over 100 hours, realistically it’ll take more than a week. This is assuming I get a spot in front of my own house, which happens like 5 times per year. Grasping at straws, but why?
Look, for some reason you thing you need to ‘win’ this ‘point’ and resort to moving goalposts and bad faith points.
I believe we both share the same goal that we want to promote EV usage and possibly even want to get rid of combustion engines? I know I do, especially in cities.
EV acceptance / migration in presently in decline HUK-E-Barometer There are a couple of reasons for that and a big one of those is that public charging is dog shit in Germany. Granted, it’s better than 5 or 10 years ago but it is still dog shit. There still being need for more stations and the prices being a hot mess are the biggest problems here.
But the price difference is not so extreme that people would scrap their petrol car for an new 20000 Euro or more EV overnight. It’s only important for people who drive a lot.
No, but it means that as soon as EVs and combustion engine cars cost the same, people will choose EVs. We are pretty close to that point.
I have been looking into this as I’d like to switch. My current car needs roughly 6.5 liters of gas per 100km, gas where I live is around 1.70-1.80€/l, that’s around 11-11.70€/100km Somewhat reasonable EVs of similar size need something between 17-20 kWh/100 km, so break even should be between 55 - 68 cents/kWh.
Electricity at home is around 40 cents, so no solar roof required to save at least some money. (It’s actually more like 30-35 cents if you remember that you need to pay the monthly baseline anyway since you need power for your home).
Public charging heavily depends on the owner of the charger, but you can find AC charging below 60 cents. (I hope we’ll get some regulation against roaming costs between different companies at some point).
Fast charging is expensive and it depends on the individual use case if you need a lot of that. But gas on the highway is more expensive too, especially during holiday season (when a lot of people take longer trips).
But it’s true that the advantage isn’t as obvious as it should be, especially compared to the up front costs.
Ok do you know a single person that relies on public charging for their ev? Cuz I don’t.
And do you think this is sustainable if we acknowledge the need to reach net 0 carbon?
How?
Who said that this is fine in general? The argument that electric vehicles are not competitive with petrol cars in Germany IF you use public charging stations only is kind of irrelevant if in reality 90% of charging cycles are done at home.
Of course it’s relevant. We need people who can’t charge at home (the vast majority) to switch to EVs.